Christmas is a Christian holiday as its meaning, but it basically incorporates older winter traditions from Roman, European, and even Central Asian cultures. I found this reading unmistakably Eurocentric to be honest. Many symbols (trees, lights, feasting, gift-giving) come from ancient pre-Christian winter rituals. Just the meaning got fit in the same 'season' with Christ's birth.
This information is misleading and seems to be convieniently leaving out the fact that Biblical Scriptures📚 emphatically stated in Jeremiah 10:1-5 “Learn not the ways of the Nations(Pagans), for the Customs of the people are False. They cut down Trees🌲and deck it with Silver and Gold🎄and fasten it with Hammer🔨and nails so that it cannot move! Be not afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good!”
Also you have the Easter🐰 🥚 or (Astar/Ishtar) Celebrations!
The Fact is, these are Pagan🗿 Celebrations, period, that were celebrated before Christianity!
I agree. But Pagan is these days a loosely used term to club all cultures and subcultures Christianity assimilated or adopted for easy merging of cultures into a proselytising new faith.
The irony is that these days, all this is argued and debated by Americans, which is funny AF. Sometimes I just want to tell them, dude your country is lesa than 500 years old so please stop trying to explain 'culture' to older parts of the world. Which is almost every other country, I mean my family is older than your culture 😂😂
I'm sorry but that's a misreading, sir. Jeremiah 10 is describing the creation of an idol, from when the tree is cut down to the final product: a carved and guilded figurine that has to be fastened down so it doesn't fall over--symbolizing the worthlessness of false gods compared to the one living God.
True True. But I always thought that with the ancient roots into the solstice and the festivals and practices already around the world that that the argument is it was shifted away from the 21st to the 25th. An assimilation of thousands of years of evident stone records that this was a time of festival and marking of the stellar moment. Of the turn back to the light.
“Oh! What are you doing in this time of the year? You don’t need to stop doing that. Why don’t you join up your party with what we do too”?
And then over the centuries the dominant 25th becomes the norm. It is fascinating that even after 2000 years we have these folk memories and deeply carved evidence point points for something thousands of years older than the Nativity.
It was my understanding that early Christian festivals were linked to as you say the deaths of Saints and key people. Seems an incredible coincidence that 300 years after the fact Emperor’s and bishops decided that it coincided with all those other big festivals of the world!
It also depends on where in the word we are talking about.. Where I live, "paganism" (we dont call it that) was there first. While christianity did exist it wasn't spread to my country yet. I also have to correct you, Jesus was born during summer, not winter. We also have to take into account that most Gemanics didn't write close to as much as the Romans so its much easier to find evidence on their traditions. I still do agree that calling it just Pagan is not discriptive enough! This was a great read overall :)
According to Paul Bradshaw in The Dating of Christmas “Liturgical historians generally agree that this part of the text was written in Rome in AD 336.”
In his sermon of AD 386 Chysostom says “Although it is not yet the tenth year since this day became clear and familiar to us, through your zeal, it has now flourished as though it was given from the beginning many years ago.”
I love Christmas, so pagan or not, I do love a beautiful Christmas tree.
Though I’m Christian, I also respect all ancient traditions that are not cruel or bloodthirsty. So even if, at some point, they were pagan, incorporating them into Christian tradition has been a long-standing action of the Church. I can point to the apotropaic crosses on obelisks, for example. A deliberate way of appropriating pre-Christian objects, re-signifying them, and absorbing them into Christian tradition rather than erasing them.
Regarding the date of birth and conception, I have a slight difference of opinion. In fact, you inspired a theory in me about it. I may eventually write about it.
What about the Wild Hunt, Rauhnächte (magic nights) and Modranhit? This period of time, these 12 nights, have always been mystical. My great-grandmother, born in 1880 in Germany, said you were not allowed to hang washed sheets during these nights, otherwise someone in the household would die. I read an explanation somewhere: the wild hunter might be caught in the sheets, and as a punishment, someone would die. The "Perchtenläufe" in the Alps region are also interesting. I think it is plausible that whoever chose the 24th/25th December took all these pagan myths into account to make Xmas former "pagans" accept Xmas. The wild hunter somehow reminds me of Santa in his sleigh.... 😁
Quite honestly, that the hypothetical date of the Nativity was decided to be December 25th, really does not matter. There are several plausable rationales e.g. back dating to the date of conception, etc. Likrewise this does not automatically mean that Christmas was originally a "Pagan" holiday. The winter soltice occurs aroung the 21st; yes it has been long celebrated. But then again, we can scan the historical calendars and identify any number of other coincidental holidays to claim pagan origin. Thus regardless of the date, someone is going to claim it was originally a pagan thingy. So WHAT!? We can STILL celebrate holidays Christimas, Hanukhah, Mawlid, Kwanzaa, Diwali et al. Very often we get things mixed up, trees notwithstanding.
And That's Ok! All the more reasons to celebrate something. Respect and enjoy, Folks!
Christmas is a Christian holiday as its meaning, but it basically incorporates older winter traditions from Roman, European, and even Central Asian cultures. I found this reading unmistakably Eurocentric to be honest. Many symbols (trees, lights, feasting, gift-giving) come from ancient pre-Christian winter rituals. Just the meaning got fit in the same 'season' with Christ's birth.
LOL. So a European writing about European heritage is too "Eurocentric" for you? Perhaps you could turn to a source that suits your tastes?
Older than that too. Winter Solstice has always been celebrated.
This information is misleading and seems to be convieniently leaving out the fact that Biblical Scriptures📚 emphatically stated in Jeremiah 10:1-5 “Learn not the ways of the Nations(Pagans), for the Customs of the people are False. They cut down Trees🌲and deck it with Silver and Gold🎄and fasten it with Hammer🔨and nails so that it cannot move! Be not afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good!”
Also you have the Easter🐰 🥚 or (Astar/Ishtar) Celebrations!
The Fact is, these are Pagan🗿 Celebrations, period, that were celebrated before Christianity!
I agree. But Pagan is these days a loosely used term to club all cultures and subcultures Christianity assimilated or adopted for easy merging of cultures into a proselytising new faith.
The irony is that these days, all this is argued and debated by Americans, which is funny AF. Sometimes I just want to tell them, dude your country is lesa than 500 years old so please stop trying to explain 'culture' to older parts of the world. Which is almost every other country, I mean my family is older than your culture 😂😂
I'm sorry but that's a misreading, sir. Jeremiah 10 is describing the creation of an idol, from when the tree is cut down to the final product: a carved and guilded figurine that has to be fastened down so it doesn't fall over--symbolizing the worthlessness of false gods compared to the one living God.
Yes, the Winter solstice has always been celebrated by many cultures. But that’s got nothing to do with Christians celebrating Christmas.
True True. But I always thought that with the ancient roots into the solstice and the festivals and practices already around the world that that the argument is it was shifted away from the 21st to the 25th. An assimilation of thousands of years of evident stone records that this was a time of festival and marking of the stellar moment. Of the turn back to the light.
“Oh! What are you doing in this time of the year? You don’t need to stop doing that. Why don’t you join up your party with what we do too”?
And then over the centuries the dominant 25th becomes the norm. It is fascinating that even after 2000 years we have these folk memories and deeply carved evidence point points for something thousands of years older than the Nativity.
It was my understanding that early Christian festivals were linked to as you say the deaths of Saints and key people. Seems an incredible coincidence that 300 years after the fact Emperor’s and bishops decided that it coincided with all those other big festivals of the world!
A wonderful world of Folklore and story!
Time is inexorable.
It also depends on where in the word we are talking about.. Where I live, "paganism" (we dont call it that) was there first. While christianity did exist it wasn't spread to my country yet. I also have to correct you, Jesus was born during summer, not winter. We also have to take into account that most Gemanics didn't write close to as much as the Romans so its much easier to find evidence on their traditions. I still do agree that calling it just Pagan is not discriptive enough! This was a great read overall :)
The word Yule does not appear in this article somehow, unsubscribe
It amazes me how this myth persists
I suggest taking a look at the several articles linked from this page: https://historyforatheists.com/pagan-origins/
These articles carefully and with documentary evidence debunk a lot of nonsense around these issues.
An amazing post! I always thought the objectors were right about its origins. Thanks for doing the digging for me!
According to Paul Bradshaw in The Dating of Christmas “Liturgical historians generally agree that this part of the text was written in Rome in AD 336.”
https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/34256/chapter-abstract/290408494?redirectedFrom=fulltext
In his sermon of AD 386 Chysostom says “Although it is not yet the tenth year since this day became clear and familiar to us, through your zeal, it has now flourished as though it was given from the beginning many years ago.”
https://earlychurchtexts.com/public/john_chrysostom_homily_in_diem_natalem_domini_nostri_jesu_christi.htm
I enjoyed the article.
I love Christmas, so pagan or not, I do love a beautiful Christmas tree.
Though I’m Christian, I also respect all ancient traditions that are not cruel or bloodthirsty. So even if, at some point, they were pagan, incorporating them into Christian tradition has been a long-standing action of the Church. I can point to the apotropaic crosses on obelisks, for example. A deliberate way of appropriating pre-Christian objects, re-signifying them, and absorbing them into Christian tradition rather than erasing them.
Regarding the date of birth and conception, I have a slight difference of opinion. In fact, you inspired a theory in me about it. I may eventually write about it.
Merry Christmas!
Yes, and the early Roman Christians converted/repurposed pagan temples, including the Pantheon. As you say, absorbing them rather than erasing them.
What about the Wild Hunt, Rauhnächte (magic nights) and Modranhit? This period of time, these 12 nights, have always been mystical. My great-grandmother, born in 1880 in Germany, said you were not allowed to hang washed sheets during these nights, otherwise someone in the household would die. I read an explanation somewhere: the wild hunter might be caught in the sheets, and as a punishment, someone would die. The "Perchtenläufe" in the Alps region are also interesting. I think it is plausible that whoever chose the 24th/25th December took all these pagan myths into account to make Xmas former "pagans" accept Xmas. The wild hunter somehow reminds me of Santa in his sleigh.... 😁
More loosely substantiated Pagan bashing- full of half facts that are mutilated by half assumptions. Don't trust your publications any more.
Quite honestly, that the hypothetical date of the Nativity was decided to be December 25th, really does not matter. There are several plausable rationales e.g. back dating to the date of conception, etc. Likrewise this does not automatically mean that Christmas was originally a "Pagan" holiday. The winter soltice occurs aroung the 21st; yes it has been long celebrated. But then again, we can scan the historical calendars and identify any number of other coincidental holidays to claim pagan origin. Thus regardless of the date, someone is going to claim it was originally a pagan thingy. So WHAT!? We can STILL celebrate holidays Christimas, Hanukhah, Mawlid, Kwanzaa, Diwali et al. Very often we get things mixed up, trees notwithstanding.
And That's Ok! All the more reasons to celebrate something. Respect and enjoy, Folks!
The Roman Empire didn't totally become Christian, it "Romanized" Christianity! Just food for Thought!💭
Thank you as always for a wonderful post! I’ll save this for when I encounter this nonsense about Christmas.
I would trust Chrysostrom as much as I do Catturd.